Good Turn IMO
Live 20, EP limps, HJ raises, SB calls, I 3 ball black kings in the BB all call 4 ways.
SB is a big fish, range very wide. EP limper is not great either, but can be aggro with made one pair hands post flop. Range also wider than optimal, both in that too many weak hands are there, and too many big ones he wouldnt raise. HJ is actually pretty decent except he seems incapable of folding to turn raises with any pair.
J 5 3 SSS
SB checks I bet EP calls HJ folds SB calls. And on cue:
Ac
SB checks.....go
SB is a big fish, range very wide. EP limper is not great either, but can be aggro with made one pair hands post flop. Range also wider than optimal, both in that too many weak hands are there, and too many big ones he wouldnt raise. HJ is actually pretty decent except he seems incapable of folding to turn raises with any pair.
J 5 3 SSS
SB checks I bet EP calls HJ folds SB calls. And on cue:
Ac
SB checks.....go
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Bet/call and fold river UI if raised (only flush that improves you), that street
is not important, they won't raise pair of Aces, because *gasp* there's a flush
out there. I don't see live players raising As x, sometimes they do, but not
really, because you might have them "outkicked" (I mean EP and HJ's ranges are a
little bit different and I'd need to know how often he ol as opposed to just
opens, but not that important), so they are only raising monsters, slowplayed
sets or flushes. You still have to bet for value / your equity in the pot.
The interesting question is more you get one caller and it's a blank river. I
think you have to b/f if EP is the caller, because otherwise you give them the
opportunity to bet their Aces at you when he has them and checking when he
doesn't and playing as a bluffcatcher lets them play perfectly. I don't really
expect to fold out Aces, but sometimes he might look you up with something like
QsJ, 9s9 or something like that to make the bet on the river profitable. If it's
HJ calling, I don't know, maybe I'm mubsy and check back. If it's two callers, I
c/f depends a little bit on river card, but yeah, if somebody bets at scary
board with Ace, he deserves the pot if he's bluffing me out of Kings.
is not important, they won't raise pair of Aces, because *gasp* there's a flush
out there. I don't see live players raising As x, sometimes they do, but not
really, because you might have them "outkicked" (I mean EP and HJ's ranges are a
little bit different and I'd need to know how often he ol as opposed to just
opens, but not that important), so they are only raising monsters, slowplayed
sets or flushes. You still have to bet for value / your equity in the pot.
The interesting question is more you get one caller and it's a blank river. I
think you have to b/f if EP is the caller, because otherwise you give them the
opportunity to bet their Aces at you when he has them and checking when he
doesn't and playing as a bluffcatcher lets them play perfectly. I don't really
expect to fold out Aces, but sometimes he might look you up with something like
QsJ, 9s9 or something like that to make the bet on the river profitable. If it's
HJ calling, I don't know, maybe I'm mubsy and check back. If it's two callers, I
c/f depends a little bit on river card, but yeah, if somebody bets at scary
board with Ace, he deserves the pot if he's bluffing me out of Kings.
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Thanks for the thoughts. I think I might disagree with you on bet/call the turn, even though that's what I ended up doing. Aren't aces just going to make up a massive portion of their ranges? And isn't another large part going to be slow played hands that beat me? I dunno, I'm not sure I have enough equity to bet and call.
I agree that the b/f against one caller on the river is a tough decision. c/c (in case he had a busted FD), just seems so weak. Once we're in posistion, I'm not betting it, checking it back, but OOP, we must b/f, imo, otherwise you give them the opportunity to play perfect. And, as I said, once 2 people are calling, we give up unless we hit the flush.
Also I don't think I can value bet the river either, regardless of who calls (the EP player or the SB). I just don't see myself as a favorite when called.
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I agree that we're behind 100% if we get raised on the turn. Still, getting 10.5 to 1, you have to call for the flush draw alone, yes, it is discounted, because he might have the As, yes he might already have the flush, yes the As pairs the board, so we might have some RIO, but even if we discount and only give ourselves 4 outs for the flush, we still have the odds to call. Once the river blanks (no spade), c/f and shrug.
I agree that the b/f against one caller on the river is a tough decision. c/c (in case he had a busted FD), just seems so weak. Once we're in posistion, I'm not betting it, checking it back, but OOP, we must b/f, imo, otherwise you give them the opportunity to play perfect. And, as I said, once 2 people are calling, we give up unless we hit the flush.
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The reviewer here is Bellatrix, and to be honest this hand was just a disaster as far as I'm concerned. The rest of the action is that I bet/called the turn and check/folded the blank river and was drawing dead to two outs on the turn. Bella is kind of right here in that they aren't going to just raise naked aces here (they are too passive) which means that when I do get raised (and cold called by the SB lol he's sofa-king terrible I love that guy so much) I can actually fold. Of course I got shown the AsQs and two pair on the river (I didn't get to fold because nobody bet) but just wow. It was one of those live spots where I just sort of bet cause it's like "kings flush draws I has it all baby!" and really needed to pause and consider the fact that the turn card was horrendous.
LOL, Wheelaments
Live 20 fish limps, I raise the AQo, button calls, blinds defend, 5 ways one time dealah.
542hhs
3 checks I check button bets. One of the blinds calls, I call. I have no hearts or spades.
Read on button: Standard slight losing reg. Too loose but not absurd, too passive but not absurd, older Indian man.
3s
Blind checks, I donk planning to call down from a raise from either player. Any other options on any streets?
542hhs
3 checks I check button bets. One of the blinds calls, I call. I have no hearts or spades.
Read on button: Standard slight losing reg. Too loose but not absurd, too passive but not absurd, older Indian man.
3s
Blind checks, I donk planning to call down from a raise from either player. Any other options on any streets?
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Flop, are we 4 ways or 5ways? Blinds plus button, plus us = 4, no?
In either case 5 times, definitely don't cbet, you've got no FE on low drawish
flop. 4ways is debatable, but I would check back.
Turn: Yes, donk! Don't worry about turning your hand face-up. This is the time
to extract value and fast against all the draws that are out there! If raised, I
would still 3bet, I still think we're in the regime, where we aren't
valuetowning ourselves yet. If you prefer to wait to a safe river (non pairing
board, no heart, no Ace) that's fine, too, to get in that extra big bet in. But
I feel that just calling down is missing a big bet somewhere.
In either case 5 times, definitely don't cbet, you've got no FE on low drawish
flop. 4ways is debatable, but I would check back.
Turn: Yes, donk! Don't worry about turning your hand face-up. This is the time
to extract value and fast against all the draws that are out there! If raised, I
would still 3bet, I still think we're in the regime, where we aren't
valuetowning ourselves yet. If you prefer to wait to a safe river (non pairing
board, no heart, no Ace) that's fine, too, to get in that extra big bet in. But
I feel that just calling down is missing a big bet somewhere.
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It's 5 ways. Limper, me, cold caller, both blinds.
We are pretty far apart here; I think 3-betting would be legendary spew. I have the exact hand a donk represents and he's still raising. Do you really think he will raise a set here? I Think free rolling aces, lol 66 and lol 65s are a massive portion of his range and simply don't see how the value from sets offset that. Of course I can fold to a four bet I guess, but still. I think I'm way way behind when he raises.
We are pretty far apart here; I think 3-betting would be legendary spew. I have the exact hand a donk represents and he's still raising. Do you really think he will raise a set here? I Think free rolling aces, lol 66 and lol 65s are a massive portion of his range and simply don't see how the value from sets offset that. Of course I can fold to a four bet I guess, but still. I think I'm way way behind when he raises.
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I'm not 3betting because I think I got the raiser range crushed, I'm 3betting
because I've got the caller's range crushed. I can see a case for just calling
if it's me donking the BTN raising, blind folding, then it's closer decision.
But BTN could be raising the lone Ace like we got there, so if blind calls, we
need to punish him for whatever he's calling with there. Similarly, the other
way around. So okay, I concede if it's HU, it might be spew, but not legendary,
harumph! ;-)
because I've got the caller's range crushed. I can see a case for just calling
if it's me donking the BTN raising, blind folding, then it's closer decision.
But BTN could be raising the lone Ace like we got there, so if blind calls, we
need to punish him for whatever he's calling with there. Similarly, the other
way around. So okay, I concede if it's HU, it might be spew, but not legendary,
harumph! ;-)
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OK, three way I can see an argument for 3-betting. What happened, however, was that the button raised and it was HU back to me. In this case I'd still make the claim that 3-betting is pretty bad.
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The reviewer here was again Bellatrix, and I disagree with her assessment. The actual action of the hand was that after I donked the turn I was raised by the button and the action folded back to me HU. I called down the turn and a blank river and was show pocket 6s. I think that 3-betting the turn under any circumstances with my hand would be quite bad and actually think one could make a reasonable argument for (gasp) folding. I mean, I'm never winning the whole pot. Ever. Sometimes I'm getting free-rolled and the vast majority of the time I'm getting shown exactly the hand he had. I don't think I can fold, but I think that doing so is at most a very small mistake.
2 comments:
Again, on the wheel post, I agree that we shouldn't 3bet once we're HU and I conceded your point, so we're not that far off - but not legendary spew :P
The first hand, you can't go around being mubsy of every scare card that appears on the board. Usually you b/f in live poker and it's lol-easy. The only difficult thing here was that you couldn't fold easily because the pot was big 10.5BB and because you had the FD.
3-betting the turn on hand 2 is major spew. I hate to disagree with bellatrix but the number of people in the hand at that point doesn't matter too much. Sure, we charge the draws, but we're only getting at best half the money we extract from them and in live 20 we're facing a better straight or a free-roll so often I can't really feel happy about putting ANY more of my own chips in the pot.
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